3 Things I Learned About Sleep From Sleep Psychologist Dr Amelia Scott

"Sleep is one of the very few biological processes where the harder you try, the less likely you are to succeed."

I'm the world's worst sleeper, so when Lee and I interviewed sleep psychologist Dr Amelia Scott on episode 15 of The Lee & Irene Show, I had a lot of questions. Amelia is a clinical psychologist and sleep researcher with a PhD in clinical psychology, a university lecturer and the founder of Circa Sleep, a practice that helps people stuck in poor sleep.

She told us insomnia is the second most common mental health condition, yet in her own psychology training, "I had zero hours in education around sleep, sleep disorders and so on." Because insomnia is so common, she kept seeing it in her early patients, so she did a lot of extra training and turned her research towards sleep. She's stayed in the field because there's such a gap. In her words, "There are so few clinicians who know sleep in depth, yet there's such an unmet need, so I feel like if I can offer a niche service, I can actually meet some of this huge unmet need in the community."

You can listen to the full episode here:

Here are the 3 things I learned from our chat with Amelia

1. Trying harder to sleep backfires

Amelia explained that waking up overnight is normal. "We all wake up many times overnight, we usually just don't remember waking up." The problem starts when we notice we're awake and start trying hard to get back to sleep. In her words, "Sleep is one of the very few biological processes where the harder you try, the less likely you are to succeed."

She also had some reassurance for anyone awake at 3am. "If you're going to bed before 10, by three in the morning you've experienced all the deep restorative sleep you're going to get overnight." And if your 3am thoughts feel scarier than they should, there's a reason for that. She told us about new research called the mind after midnight, where the part of the brain that thinks logically is asleep while the fear centres are wide awake, so night thoughts can feel catastrophic.

She shared a thought experiment from the sleep psychology world too. "If you ask a good sleeper what they do to sleep well at night, they usually say not very much. They hop into bed when they feel sleepy and they just let it happen."

2. You can be tired but not sleepy

Amelia said, "Most people who struggle with sleep are constantly tired, exhausted, depleted, but they're not sleepy."

I had to ask her to repeat it, because she'd just summed up my entire relationship with sleep for the last 20 years. I've had every possible test for chronic fatigue and adrenal fatigue, and every single one has come back clear.

Amelia explained that tiredness can come from lots of places, like diet, inflammation, stress, worrying and even not drinking enough water. Sleepiness is different. "Sleepiness is defined in a boring way as how likely you are to fall asleep. So if you're lying in bed reading a book and you've noticed that your eyes are starting to feel heavy and the urge to sleep has come over you, that is sleepiness." Her advice is to go to bed when you feel sleepy, not just tired.

3. My Oura ring might be making it worse

I read Amelia my Oura ring stats live on the show. A sleep score of 87, seven hours 31 minutes of total sleep, and a little crown for a great night. Then I admitted that I'd left the ring off the night before, because I couldn't deal with the stress of it telling me I hadn't slept well.

Amelia said trackers "can be helpful when people need a nudge to value their sleep more", but there's another side to them. "If you find you've got a bit of a strained relationship with your sleep, you don't trust your body's ability to sleep and you're starting to feel a little bit at the mercy of it, I'm not sure the trackers are giving you the right message."

She described a study where people were randomly told their sleep was either good or bad. "Irrespective of their actual sleep, the group that get good feedback, they feel better, they do more things, they feel less tired. The group that get bad feedback, they cancel more plans." It's called the nocebo effect.

Her tip is to hold off judging how you slept until you've had some sunlight, some water and something to eat.

My own trick for getting back to sleep

I shared my own trick on the show. When my brain won't stop, "I pretend that I've opened up the top of my head, I've picked up my brain with my hand and I've put my brain on the bedside table." Then I pop it back in in the morning. Amelia asked if she could use it in her clinic, and said it's one of her favourite visualisations.

What about magnesium?

Of course I had to ask about magnesium. I told Amelia that when I rub the MooGoo Muscle Magic Magnesium Moisturiser on my son's legs at night, he falls asleep straight away, and so do I.

Amelia said it also sounds like "a really nice, calm bonding moment", and that the ritual matters too. "If people are finding that pretty harmless supplement is really part of their ritual and it helps them to nod off, I don't care if it's placebo or not." If you want to know more, I've written about the difference between magnesium flakes and Epsom salts.

Listen to the full episode

We covered so much more, including sleep in perimenopause, burnout and sleep divorces. You can listen to the full episode on Spotify.

Amelia's practice Circa Sleep offers evidence-based psychological support for people stuck in poor sleep. She sees people face to face and via telehealth.

About the Author

Irene Falcone is the founder of Clean Nectarine and co-host of The Lee & Irene Show. She started her first clean beauty business in 2011 with $100 in her garage and grew it to $20m in four years. She has spent over 15 years reading the backs of beauty and wellness labels, is a Telstra Business Women's Awards winner and an EY Entrepreneur of the Year finalist, and has been featured on A Current Affair, The Project, Sunrise, Channel Nine Mornings and Sky News.

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